The 'Rape' Fantasy

[logansrogue]

Interesting to see women respond to this Dolce & Gabana ad on ONTD.



See, I'm... I'm funny on this issue. I think it's okay for women to have their fantasies. But there's a distinct list of things that I do not fantasise about, that I never will and find extremely disturbing. Those are:

- Abuse
- Rape
- Incest
- Myself being dominated.

Now, maybe it's been my upbringing with my overbearing father making me buck any sort of authority figure or dominance (armchair psychology ahoy) or the fact that I've been brought up by my staunch feminist of a mother, but nothing turns me off more than a male seeking dominance or control. There has only ever been ONE situation where being overpowered by a man in a sexual situation didn't bother me, and that's because I implicitly trusted the man and I knew that he'd rather poke out his own eyeballs than hurt me (or any living thing for that matter). And it was playful anyhow.

I don't *like* being vulnerable. I don't like being reminded of being vulnerable. When I'm naked and in bed with someone, I'd prefer to feel empowered. Not in the sense that I dominate over the other partner - I couldn't stand that. I like two people being intensely excited by the other just being there and the power is in what they do to each other.


Am I nuts? Crazy? Unusual? Let me know what you think.

Comments

[fifteensixty.livejournal.com]

The thing is, D&G simply said it was a sexual fantasy by way of explanation. They didn't say it was the woman's sexual fantasy, and there's nothing to denote the scene as a female's sexual fantasy. It seems to me more like a man's gang rape fantasy. And even if it is a fantasy, how does that make it acceptable public advertising? If the advertisement showed a child being pinned down by a man, it could be someone's sexual fantasy, but that by no means makes it acceptable whatsoever.

I have no problem with the idea of people preferring to be submissive in the sexual aspect of a relationship, and although I might not feel that way myself, I can understand that some people enjoy being dominated, and I don't think that's wrong. But the issue is when it's depicted in such a way that it is offensive and demeaning and shows no sense of responsibility in the purveyors.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I was sort of talking about all the women that were talking about it being their sexual fantasy. And I was trying to understand *why* women enjoy that. I like to understand differing opinions on things.

I never said I think it's *wrong* in any way, just that I felt funny about it in my own situation.

I agree with you - that ad is demeaning, as is the one where the man is getting fondled (though somehow it's less menacing because he's visibly stronger than the stick-thin models supposedly 'holding' him down).

[fifteensixty.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to say what I thought of the ad since I didn't comment over on ONTD because my comment would have been on like the fifth page of comments and no one would have read it.

I also didn't read the comments about women saying it was their sexual fantasy, but yeah, apparently the rape fantasy is quite common. I don't think that women are wishing for rape in general, because it's a violating and degrading thing, but I think it's more the case that they wish someone they are attracted to (but can't necessarily express that attraction to) would just have sex with them, without verbal consent from the woman. I think it's conceived as a "rape" fantasy just because the woman didn't verbally discuss the desire with the person of her fantasy and the suddenness of it makes it almost seem like it wasn't consensual, but it would be consensual. I've heard of a few females having rape fantasies about a male colleague in the workplace, just because it might be inappropriate to express their desire or attraction but they would still like to have sex with that man and because it may not be an issue that can be discussed, they might just wish it would happen without it being their responsibility, i.e. the man initiated sex without verbal consent.

As for the aspect of being submissive, I don't think it's necessarily about feeling exposed or vulnerable. I think it's about someone else being in control and using you (in a way that is enjoyable to both of you) to fulfill their desires. It could make a woman feel very empowered if she feels like she can let her partner take control and do whatever is necessary to fulfill their desires, because she has the power to allow that to happen, and she feels secure enough in the relationship to let that happen. It's about her being a method through which the other person can fulfill their desires, and it would be an empowering thing to know that you are the essential component of the fulfillment of your partner's desires.

Plus it's the power of the unknown which can be a highly arousing factor; if someone relinquishes control to someone else, it could be very exciting not knowing what's going to happen next and knowing that you're not in control of it. Of course, again, it would have to be a secure relationship with a lot of trust, but if it was that sort of relationship, the element of the unknown could easily lead to heightened arousal.

[berenicepotter.livejournal.com]

hmmm no, why would you be nuts? lol

This ad reminds me to one we got here, i was about tonic water, and had a girl with very few clothes saying 'yes, dad' LOL I hated the ad. Great quality of image, but the concept was shit. May be it was water for lesbians, no men was going to drink that just because of the girl in the add.

Anyways, I think I like D&G Italian Team better

http://pics.livejournal.com/berenicepotter/pic/000fwybg

http://pics.livejournal.com/berenicepotter/pic/000fxyd8

http://pics.livejournal.com/berenicepotter/pic/000fyy11

http://pics.livejournal.com/berenicepotter/pic/000fz1hq

See? More interesting lol Even though I like just 2 of those 5 guys. The hairy one with beard and the bald one xD

[berenicepotter.livejournal.com]

Yes, they are. And honestly, I don't remember their names, even if 'matterazzi' sounds familiar to me. I just remember their hotness LOL

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Spam away!

[tangofiction.livejournal.com]

I haven't seen the ads but I just have to say: I *totally* agree with you. I don't get the appeal at all. It's kind of rare in the Xena fandom, I think, to find women who are into being dominated (at least straight women) -- but when I tried hanging out in the "Phantom of the Opera" fandom, I found to my surprise that there's plenty of them out there. A lot of it is the usual teen fantasy of a strong powerful male, where a girl is still so insecure in her own sexuality that her fantasies are all about being "done to", rather than actively participating. But what freaked me out far more were the people who are just clearly into male-dom. I understand the need to be tolerant, but I still find it tremendously strange. It's one thing when it's just play-acting for a bit of fun, but the sense of physical helplessness and vulnerability as a turn-on? Um... NO.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I think the closest I've ever come to writing that sort of thing is with either the Ares/Xena pairing and the Logan/Rogue pairing. And even then the women were being respected, even though they were with someone that could overpower them. First, Ares wouldn't risk that sort of bullshit cause, you know - it's Ares! Secondly, Logan is generally the kind of guy to be hyper-protective and possessive rather than aggressive and controlling.

But I'm with you. No, no turn on for me.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

Surely in a Logan/Rogue thing Rogue would suck up all of Logan's powers and become the dominant one?

I don't believe I'm posting about this.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Logan/Rogue fans of the movie kind (the ones I am more aware of) are very creative. Either they just write a situation where her powers are a non-issue or they think of ways for them to touch without touching. (Scarves, body-stockings and condoms are very popular).

Mainly, they worry not about this pesky Marvel "ROGUE SHALL NEVER TOUCH OR BE TOUCHED!" stuff.

Me, I just fantasize about Anna Paquin wearing all leather and beating the shit out of bad guys and fucking Wolverine. Mmmm, tough hot chicks.

[tangofiction.livejournal.com]

Mmm, Xena/Ares as a maledom pairing? Nah. They're about as equal as it gets -- and they're always pretty equal in your fics, actually. Either of them *could* become dominant under some circumstances, but that just adds extra tension to the balance.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

That's why I said 'closest'. Cause it's close but no cigar. I like the fact that the power swings back and forth between them.

Speaking of which, I've been working on some rather awesome scenes in my latest fic, if you're interested. ;-P

[tangofiction.livejournal.com]

'Course I'm interested, but you've been saying that for a while and still no fic. :D

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

No no, ask Sandy, I've been actually writing! :D

[starfyre01.livejournal.com]

It's twue! It's twue! She's been writing! I can verify :-D

[annearchy.livejournal.com]

It's some dumb guy's idea of a male fantasy, and it's nasty.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

It was the girls I was concerned about. The people that release ads like that are lost causes. :T

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Right. See, when you say it like that, I can appreciate the situation and understand why one would like the fantasy.

I guess I've felt the effects of real rape in my life and I see it as nothing but horrific and damaging. I can't mentally separate it from fantasy because it's just too painful. (No, I haven't been raped but my older sister was and it was a terrible upset to our family.)

Well, you asked!

[coell.livejournal.com]

You must be asking about me, because I have a huge, hard kink for being dominated. A lot of my fantasies are role-played as non-con and dub-con. I worried about myself and this when I was young, and my readings led me to "sexual guilt" as the culprit. If a woman feels she shouldn't be having sex, then she is attracted to sex she can't control. Deeply I think I'm ugly and non-sexual, so I remove myself from the fantasy and pretend to be someone else who's the object of someone's deranged focus. Being forced, either physically or mechanically, is something I've also enjoyed in Japanese erotica -- and then the equally disturbing trend that women are really filthy whores and the "victim porn" genre exposes them.

I think the disconnect comes when, in my fantasy or in other cultures, the victim is actually into it. Maybe they don't want to admit it, maybe a curse made them lustful, maybe a poison has to be ejaculated, maybe they're possessed... but during the act, the rape is blurred and idealized. Consent isn't an issue, orgasm is ... and the kink is knowing a trick has been played, or the guilt that will hit when the spell is released.

If the victim isn't enjoying it or being manipulated in some way, if the victim is really suffering -- I'm squicked. I once dared myself to watch Irreversible, the most disturbing movie ever made, and it shows a real rape start to finish ... I cried myself to sleep, it was that horrible and heart-breaking.

Of course there are days when I know I have to at least try to like myself, and it would serve me to steer my fantasies somewhere healthier and force a "taste shift" ... but there it is. I see that D&G ad and think, "Oh you lucky whore."

So then I say... wait for it... I'm a feminist. (*HIDES*) I know, right! It's a problem. S&M is erotic when it's a bond of trust. Real rape is vile to me, but I think two consenting adults can play whatever they want. So I admit I'm messed up. Bad childhood. Rape fantasy is a symptom of a problem, and should not be considered normal or ideal.

Incest is a weird one for me. I have five siblings and don't have any desire to sex them. But if two wanted to, I guess why not? If me and one of my parents wanted to, why not? It's just sex. It's just rubbing two parts together to secrete some hormones. If two people who are related want to do that for each other -- fine by me. But I think there are hundreds of better alternatives, so I discourage it. Family love should stay in a different category than Lust Love. Let each one hold its power individually. I used to be ok with HP's Fred/George until I really thought about it and started avoiding it. But then I got into Supernatural, and there's a big Dean/Sam fandom that upon first glance had me screaming and running away from my computer. The deep squick I felt made me understand why anyone could hate slash. It broke my Snape/Harry OTP, it bothered me that much. Now I'm focusing most on gen and het in all my fandoms. When actually, I need to focus more on me as a healthy and sex-deserving person, instead of living my life through fandoms and failed relationships.

Re: Well, you asked!

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I find it really interesting that you've identified your kinks and the line where you feel 'squicked', and then tried to understand it rather than justify it like so many people tend to. It's very admirable that you own your kinks but are aware and unashamed to speak of why they might not be healthy.

I agree with you, though. Between two consenting adults, damn near any act that brings them pleasure is fine by me, as long as nobody is seriously hurt.

See, I have kinky fantasies but they're always imagined ones and I'd never act them out. There is only one kind of person I would ever let myself be dominated by - an attractive woman. There was this one woman I met at a racy party and I let her do things to me I've never let anyone do. It was intensely erotic yet I know that I would never, ever have let her do those things if she'd been a man. Don't ask me why. My kinky fantasies go the same way - Xena/Callisto, for instance. Their aggression turns to sex, but both of them are always enjoying it. The point, though, is that I'm never the one in the situation. It's always me *watching* it, and I think that's rather telling of my psychology.

I wouldn't say non-incest slash or lesbian fiction would be unhealthy to indulge in. But it is true that a chunk of fic authors (not all) might benefit on focusing on their real-life relationships a bit more! :D

[girlguitarist.livejournal.com]

Now, I don't get the appeal of the rape fantasy, though I think the photo is cool. Not as an ad, of course!

I'm curious as to how you feel about male fantasies of being dominated. Is a dominatrix as terrible as a man who wants to do the same to a woman?

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Uhm... you know that's funny. I'd be totally put off by a man wanting to be dominated by me. I don't want a powerless man in bed. As I said to someone else, I logically understand the kink and morally have no objection to other people enjoying what they like to enjoy in the privacy of their own bedrooms (as long as nobody is hurt). But personally, I'm rather more turned on by a meeting of equals. Balance and challenge and surrender - those are my kinks, I guess. But I'm an old romantic at heart. LOL.

[gemfyre.livejournal.com]

There was actually a discussion about this recently on Vagpag. Many women do have rape/being dominated fantasies (I'll admit this - I'm one of them). But the interesting point was brought up that in a fantasy it's never truly rape/domination because the one doing the fantasising is in total control over what they imagine.

For many it's barely connected to what they actually want from reality, which is a loving, equal relationship (there are exceptions of course, there always is). It's just a fun, deviant little thing to imagine.

[gemfyre.livejournal.com]

As for the picture. It looks kinda ridiculous to me. The blokes look bored and she looks like she's practising gymnastics in entirely inapprpriate clothing.

Actually, it looks like a game of Twister.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I understand that part of it. I just don't relate and was hoping to gain some insight.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

FWIW - I understand and respect people that have submissive (or dominance) fantasies, and have quite a few friends who (either recreationally or professionally) are into acting those fantasies, and I have no problem with it. Fantasy is fantasy, most people are smart enough to tell the difference - and a lot of the time, peoples sexual fantasies are about acting the opposite to the way they do in general life. Its a cliche but its true that many (not all) people who are into subbing are people with important, dominant jobs, and many doms are people with strong personalities but who do not feel empowered with their life situation.

And I can sometimes see the sexual attraction myself, though not always.

But really, I'm with you, engaging with someone sexually as an equal is far more exciting to me. A bit of playful back and forth is great, but a willing and enthusiastic equal much better than a slave or a master.

[onlymyhobby.livejournal.com]

I saw that ads, but the rape fantasy didn't even occur to me. I didn't find it overly sexual at all. Obviously they're "canoodling" but anyways. No You're not crazy. I think that whole concept is sickening. I don't see how it could be appealing, personally I think that those people need medication. Like the brother sister couple in Germany right now fighting for the incest laws to change, so they won't spend time in jail everytime they have sex. They've got 3 or 4 kids together, like who let's that happen? If they get caught, and have a kid, HAY psychiatric hossy.

On the whole dom/sub issue, I prefer to have my man be able to keep up with me, not lay there and take it like a bitch and vice versa/

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I prefer to have my man be able to keep up with me, not lay there and take it like a bitch and vice versa

Oh yeah, I want some hustle in the tussle! :D