Women in the Army.

[logansrogue]

There was a question posed on ABC news. "Are people ready to see women die on the battle field?"

Women die every day. Women die giving birth. They die being victimised. They die in their jobs that they love, and they die in their beds after a long, happy life.

If a woman is willing to die for her country, who are we to stop her? Why shouldn't she? Are men's lives worth less than a woman's?

I don't like war. I'm a pacifist. But it's not a perfect world and we'll probably always need a defence force. There's no real reason I can think of that women shouldn't be given the chance to do that job.

Comments

[ausizoro.livejournal.com]

the Israeli army has women in it :)

[annearchy.livejournal.com]

There are plenty of women serving in the U.S. Army in Iraq. And plenty have died. I don't think they're in specific combat positions, but it's easy enough to be driving a Jeep and run across and IED and get blown up, or get hit by sniper fire - and that counts just as much as the guy who gets shot by an enemy combatant in a fire fight.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

There are women in the army here, it's the elite "warrior" roles or something that's being opened up to women. Some old fuddies think women can't cut it. Jerks. Some women can't. Some women CAN. Same with men.

[caitlen.livejournal.com]

Women can participate in 97% of defense force positions in Australia, including being fighter pilots and flying jet bombers (possibly the same thing these days...). They're in a certain level, of what I consider to be, front line positions. There are only two places they can't go: front line infantry and the Special Air Service (SAS), which is according to my partner who is a nut about this stuff, the same as Delta Force in the US, which is one level beyond the Rangers.

[annearchy.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the info about Australia. Actually I believe women are serving as fighter pilots in the U.S. Air Force too - I think front line infantry and Delta Force are off-limits, not sure what else.

[caitlen.livejournal.com]

I think it will be interesting to see the results of the study. There are quite a few issues to be looked at here. There is a 13% level of women in the army, who can do 97% worth of stuff. There are only two positions they can't: serve in the front line, and be in the Special Air Services. It's not a gender issue at that level, it's a physical fitness issue. (Well, that could be the major issue.) I think that women should be offered a role in front line defense, if they can pass the physical tests. And you're going to have to be at the very top of your game to pass them, and there are some women who can do that. I think that if you do have women in the front line, you'll have some very level headed people out there.

However, if they're behind the enemy lines, marching for 40 kms with 25kgs on their back, you've got to be able to keep up. If you look at the London Marathon, a man always comes in first. In the 2009, the first woman over the line was 17 minutes behind the first guy. If you're 17 minutes behind the team leader in a combat position, you're screwed. In basic physiology terms (and I'm looking at the top level athletes here) women are in general slightly slower, slightly not-as-strong etc. That's going to make a big difference.

I think that there will have to be some serious thought to allow women into the SAS. However, in saying that, I think that if you had a totally-female team I think that they'd do great. But a mixed team? Not quite sure. I think they should put a volunteer call out in the female ranks at a certain level in the army now, and put them through Hell, otherwise known as SAS training, and see how far they get. That would be interesting.

Women already see quite a bit of 'front line' activity, but in the form of chopper pilots, pilots who go into the red zones to extract soldiers, fighter pilots etc. I think those women do a great job, and there should be more of them. I simply believe that there is more to it than saying 'If you want to do that, you should'. I think that as well, but they have to prove they can manage it.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

"I think that women should be offered a role in front line defense, if they can pass the physical tests."

You're right on here. I think it should be a matter of "Can you do the job?" What they have between their legs really is irrelevant. The question is - can they do the job? If a person isn't fast or fit enough for a certain job, then there's no point in having them there. There's no real chance of gender equity in a life or death situation. That said, I've known some tough-ass women. I am not one of them, but they're around.

[caitlen.livejournal.com]

They are around. I'm not one of them either, but good on them if they can do it. The army is all about "Can you do this job". It's time to update the position details. I'm still a bit hesitant about a mixed-group SAS division, but on that point, I would point to the black ops CIA divisions where they have all girl teams. In that way, everyone is equal on that team. I reckon they could possibly do a better job than the boys sometimes.

It's no longer a case of "Can a woman fire a gun to kill people", but "Can they physically do the job".

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Yeah. But hey, we're better off than the Americans. Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Fucking unbelievable.

[akire-yta.livejournal.com]

google UN and Indian units called - the Lioneses, iirc. They were an all-female groundpounder unit that allthe fuddy-duddy's thought would...I don't know, lower the tone of the barracks or something. BUT, it turns out they were GREAT at peacekeeping, because a woman walking towards you with a gun going "please may we look in your house" broke the local male mindset/brain SO MUCH they did it without arguing, and ended up becoming part of the neighbourhood - y'know ACTUAL Peacekeeping, rather than igniting trouble.

they're now thinking of creating more Lionese units and deploying them more widely across peacekeeping theatres...

[caitlen.livejournal.com]

That's why I reckon a few women-only units would work super really well, and I include a woman-only SAS unit in there.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

Yes, women are on the whole slightly slower, slightly weaker, but for both genders there is a big bell curve of population, and at any level below the super-elite, there will generally be less women than men that can achieve it, but still a substantial minority of women that can. If fitness is the issue, set a physical test. Sure, the top woman might be 17 minutes behind the winner of the London marathon, but there aren't that many men that would come that close either -- and if you set the physical bar slightly lower than that (say, run a marathon within an hour of the worlds best time, still an extraordinary level of achievement) then there will be women who can do it.

[sir-devans.livejournal.com]

Here here

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

If you don't want to see women die in war, don't get involved in wars.

Women die in war. The idea that women won't die in war if we keep them out of the front lines betrays a bit of a nasty first world bias, I think -- what we mean is, if we keep women out of the front line troops, then because our armies usually fight overseas wars far away from us, only foreign women will die.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

It's just horrible, isn't it? This is why I believe in pacifism.

[purrdence.livejournal.com]

I'm in the 'if the woman is question can do the job, let her' camp.

I also entertain thoughts of all women squads where everyone's PMS synocronises at the same time... they'd be the deadliest squad in the whole frakkin' place. *mwahaahahahahahaaaaaaa*

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Dude. My parents were hassling me for living at home today, and Dad was hassling me for messing up the couch because I sat on it. And I was badly MSing (in the middle of my period). I shouted and yelled angrily for about five minutes, then burst into tears. So embarrassing! I'd be a crappy soldier. I'd be saying sorry to the enemy five minutes later and offering them muffins.