I get so tired of this conversation...

[logansrogue]

This is a rather infuriating thread on Feministe, entitled "On Hating Kids".

Now, I'm friends with a few child-free folk. I am fine and down with being child-free. I am even understanding if someone doesn't like to have children in their lives. You know what? That's great. You go with that, it's your right.

But with all things, one person's rights end where another person's rights begin. And children are people, they have rights. They have a right to go out into public. They have a right to eat at restaurants where there is no age restriction. They have the right to see movies, go shopping with their parents, to run down a street and enjoy the sunshine.

Of course, this view is not touching the very real pressure women feel to live a heteronormative ideal. I've felt that pressure plenty of times. I didn't want kids in my early twenties and often balked at the thought of being a mother one day. I'm not even talking about the preference society places on people that have children - I understand that is a real and frustrating thing for those without children.

But I always maintain that one should keep their frustrations focused where they belong. Children do not choose the way society treats them. They have had a tragic past where they have been exploited, sold, used, abused and treated as subhuman. This is something that still goes on today in certain parts of the world, some not so distant as you'd like to think. It is only recently that they're starting to gain the rights they deserve. The last thing we as a society should do is step backwards and discriminate against people who can't help the fact that they've not had the time to grow up yet.

ETA: Public space is not our space. Children, the elderly, and people with disabilities don’t use parks, restaurants, stores, museums, and theaters at our indulgence, because it’s not our space. It’s everyone’s space, and everyone has an equal claim on it. -- This excellent post that says exactly what I meant to say but much, much better than I did.

Comments

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

I agree with this, completely.

And if children are being utter terrors (which I've almost never encountered in restaurants and cafes when there have been children there, but I assume it happens), it's up to people concerned to take it up with the parents if they have a problem, instead of the children. The children have a right to be there, and the patrons and staff have a right to let the parents know that they expect a level of decorum in their restaurant.

I don't think it's fair to let the behaviour of a few childfree people and very badly behaved children spoil it for everyone else. I like that kids can go to parks / restaurants / cafes. I'm childfree, but I like the idea of kids being kids, in a lot of different places.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Beautifully said. I've been annoyed in public by kids, mainly kids making noise at movies, and I love kids, so I know the frustration. But I've also had great times with unexpected outbursts at movies, especially when it's a kid totally getting into said movie and reacting to something really full on on the screen. My Mum never had much of a problem with us kids in public, because she'd let us know that our behaviour was not okay if we acted out. But kids screw up cause they don't know any better.

I hope that something good comes from people talking about this in the feminist blogs. I'm just so disappointed that Feministe had a thread like that, with those sorts of comments. It's the sort of thing I'd expect at somewhere like Jezebel. :(

[bewarethespork.livejournal.com]

Well said.

[im-an-aaangel.livejournal.com]

Seriously. People like that make other childfree people look bad.

[nicoli-dominn.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I don't want to be lumped in with them either.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

You guys are nothing like them.

[countessdeweird.livejournal.com]

Thanks for putting all that so well :) I've had a super big lightbulb moment reading through that thread and other associated stuff this evening.

This: "one should keep their frustrations focused where they belong. Children do not choose the way society treats them," together with the reiteration that one person's rights end where another's begin (shamefully, not something I'd ever thought far enough to apply to children), really helped coalesce all my thoughts into something productive.

So thankyou. Thankyou lots and lots and lots.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

No problem. I'm glad my post was helpful!

I have little nieces and nephews that I'm really close to. Thinking of their rights comes as second nature to me, but that's due to my current dedication to being an Auntie. :)

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

You're kind of ignoring the fact that the privileged parents on that thread---telling the childfree that they're enabling rape and harassment, that they should 'stay home and order in', that their logic is stupid and childless----are doing damage not only to their own children but to everybody who has to deal with them. It's not discrimination when I say I don't want to get screamed at when I'm paying for the privilege of giving myself the extremely rare treat, assuming I get well enough to even get to that point.

Kids, per se, aren't the problem. It's their parents. And at least some of those parents think being a parent means that they can't be criticized ever.Telling a parent that they chose, say, dirty diapers is not at all the same thing as telling somebody that they chose to get raped. People are signing off on that kind of shit and it's infuriating.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I didn't notice that sort of talk on the thread. I don't know where they're saying they're enabling rape and harrassment - I didn't read every comment. If I saw that sort of thing, I wouldn't be down with it.

But I think we both agree that punishing children doesn't help with this problem. Which is what I was trying to say.

[ginmar.livejournal.com]

Nobody's talking about punishing the kids. MIriam Heddy's much-ballyhooed, much-loved comment, getting all kinds of high fives, contains this kind of bullshit: "Oh, well, you CHOSE to be a cop? Then you chose to get sexually harassed? What's a matter, you can't take it? You pussy!" That's what she says the childfree are saying, complete with the 'you pussy' at the end. And I've quoted her ver batim on my blog, along with Renee, who told Marcotte to stuff it with her 'stupid childfree logic.' Because only parents are smart. Renee herself said that letting a toddler scream its head off was the way to go, but failed to mention the fate of anybody around her and her Pwecious, who presumably have no other option but to leave, get screamed at, or 'order in'---according to Jesse, in one of the first coments.