Fucking Feministing!

[logansrogue]

Their comment engine is down. I'm fucking pissed. I wanted to leave a comment on the Spanish Breastfeeding Baby-Doll. I spent some time on it, so I'm putting it up here:



Yeah, feminists can piss me off. We're not all going to agree with each other all the time. Here is me disagreeing with some:

Why do we have to politicise everything that little children do? Or sexualise them? I have such wonderful memories of having a baby doll of my own, and I loved that doll cause my Mum gave it to me for Christmas. My little sister had a baby doll too. Mine had wool hair, (rubber cabbage-patch doll) and my sister's was a realistic baby with a cloth body. We both tended those dolls lovingly, and my Mum had just had our little brother Scotty. My sister and I would play with the babies and pretend to breastfeed, just like Mum was breastfeeding her little baby. And we both grew up to be dyed-in-the-wool feminists, just as our mother is a feminist.

We were drenched in the wonder of childbirth and life when we were little because my mother and our much older big sisters were going through that stage of their lives. Damning that or taking that away from a little girl is taking away a choice and that's so wrong. Even if they never want children themselves, or want to grow up to be a person that is not femme in the slightest, there is never anything wrong with growing up with an appreciation of how life begins, and how wonderful motherhood can be.

I know I would have loved this toy as a child. I see more to be worried about in the way adults are freaking out about this doll, on either side of the divide (the FauxNews dudes and the women here who are rallying against this 'indoctrination' of motherhood).

The last thing we need to do is cut motherhood out of our lives. The first thing we need to do is to learn now normal and wonderful motherhood is and to teach this to our children - of either sex. If a child learns the value of life, and the hard work and commitment involved in that, then hopefully they won't be so ready to disregard other lives, either in violence or in policy when they grow up.

Comments

[greteldragon.livejournal.com]

Fucking feministing in general is certainly a cry that gets yelled a lot in my house. Usually followed by 'well why do you read it then?' :P

The constant assumption that breasts and nipples need to be about sex annoys the crap out of me. Even though that toy is a little creepy in my opinion (I was a child that didn't really get the playing with dolls all that much. Teddy bears sure, dolls and barbies never really grabbed me).

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

It's not a toy for everyone but I see the value in it. A lot of kids do that sort of play anyway. I did. I guess that's why it doesn't freak me out. I was surrounded by breastfeeding when I grew up, it just seemed like a part of life. But having a mechanical rubber baby chomping at your tot's chest is concievably a little weird.

Feministing has its good and bad moments. When the bad moments outweigh the good ones, I generally move on. Hence why I gave up looking at Jezebel. The new comment structure has made it easier for gossip-obsessed airheads to dominate the discussions, and latey a lot of trolls have been overrunning the place.

I'd go mad it if wasn't for Shakesville and Hoyden About Town.

[greteldragon.livejournal.com]

Hm fair enough. I think my other problem is a dislike for I guess the growing electronicalising of kids toys. Dolls without fancy bits were good enough for me goddamnit :P

I have rss feeds set up on a seperate lj, along with one million other communities and forums that annoy me, I usually skim through unless there's something I strongly disagree with. :P

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, I wish toys would leave more to children's imaginations. I had cardboard boxes and textas as a kid. I ran a mile to school and back! In the snow! At four in the morning! Barefoot! *shakes cane*

[purrdence.livejournal.com]

And we were *grateful!* for our piece of coal at Christmas! *teehee*

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I had one spoiled brat moment as far as toys went. I thought I was getting a Jem doll for Christmas, and I got a Stormer instead. I was upset for about fifteen minutes. Then I forgot about it and played with the doll all day.

I lost my Jem doll. I decided she was ugly. But I still have that damned Stormer doll, and I remember Mum bought her just for me.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

If I see confused parents walking up and down the toy department aisles at Christmas, and I'm not busy, I always ask them what they're looking for, cause it usually goes along the lines of "Oh my kid wants this Darth Vader for Christmas, I don't know what Darth Vader is. This... Jar Jar Binks thing. That's the same thing isn't it?"

Then I help them search through the racks until we find the figure the kid wants, because for that kid it will make the biggest difference if their parents buys them exactly what they want.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

This is true. But you know what? I'm so glad Mum got it wrong. :)

[purrdence.livejournal.com]

My parents would go the 'give both girls the same present so there will be no arguments' path and it took them nearly 20 years to get that it was Not Such a Good Idea and that my sister and I didn't appreciate not being treated like individuals.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Mum did that with Tina and I sometimes. Generally, she got us to ask for our presents. When you have seven kids, having less guesswork is kinda essential. And we never asked for anything over 50 bucks.

[freyaw.livejournal.com]

It still drives me nuts. My parents always did for me the things my sister wanted them to do when she was my age. So I always got the treatment she had wanted. I value things people have thought about, even if they're not precisely what I want. Getting presents for my sister, I would always leave myself a budget and buy whatever a week before the event, if I could, because what she wanted would have changed from the week before.

[groovekittie.livejournal.com]

Perhaps this doll would be better. I want to get one for my kids. My daughter is already begging me for one. :)

http://www.naturalchild.org/shop/dolls/nursing.html

No mechanical bits to get worried about. Mechanical dolls creep me out.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Yeah, they stray into "Uncanny Valley" for me. I prefer a simple smiling doll with blinking eyes, thanks.

[groovekittie.livejournal.com]

Even the blinking dolls creep me out. lol I'm a fan of cloth dolls though.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Depends what kind of blinky eyes. I had a blinkey-eyed Cabbage Patch doll, and she was adorable. But I hated regular Cabbage Patch dolls. My sister had a non-blinkey baby and I loved that frickin' doll. I like to play with it sometimes when I go to my sister's house. It's so friggin real, I don't know why. It has a spirit about it. It feels like a real baby. So much so, people had great fun throwing it about and watching my little sister freak out. Though, they'd do that to my Cindy as well, and I'd cry. No, this was not when I was a kid. This was a couple of years ago. I came in to find her hanging by her neck from the curtain railing. People play such horrible tricks on me sometimes. LOL!

[greteldragon.livejournal.com]

Those are quite cute.

Yeah mechanicalness does creep me out. But then I just remembered someone got me this little mini computer thing to do basic maths and logic games on as a kid and I was obsessed with it.

It was just in other dolls and stuff (particularly ones that made noises) that I found weird.

[lauredhel.livejournal.com]

Oh my... I don't even know if I want to click the link, being well aware of the Feministing commentariat's previous form on breastfeeding.

Do I dare?

Love your comment.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't know, I wanted to head-desk into infinity at some of the comments. It's just stunning in a horrible way that feminists would chop of the nose to spite the face, so to speak. A lot of women are happy to be mothers, and so demonising being a mother isn't going to help anyone. Celebrating and respecting motherhood is a feminist act. As is inviting men into the wonder of being deeply involved with childcare. Having breast-feeding babies helps that! I'm preaching to the converted here, but yeah. I couldn't say this on the site itself and it shat me.

Thank you!

[boomstick.livejournal.com]

The only thing about that doll that makes me uneasy is the top that it comes with for the little girl...unless I read wrong, I believe it comes with flower-petals over the nipples that are easily removed. I can't figure out why, but that makes me feel weird.

Other than that, the only thing that might be annoying is the incessant sucking noises. I feel like a lot of little girls pretend to breast-feed anyway with the dolls they have.

[zebeckras.livejournal.com]

Honestly now. (I wasn't going to be replying to friends lists for a while, but I am trying to keep reading at least once every few days, and this is sort of on-topic for me *G*)

We're not into baby dolls, but my aunt bought my daughter one for Christmas, and she really likes it. It's not her favourite toy but she does pull it out every so often and play with it. Now that the new baby is here she's started nursing her baby. It's cute and also I think breastfeeding ois rather empowering.

Well, must cut this short, but ultimately - no one HAS to buy this doll. I wouldn't. Shesh.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Right, nobody has to buy the doll. The doll is not mandatory. I don't see the harm in having it available for kids that do like playing "booby for bubby", ya know? The way these Fox guys are reacting, you'd think we'd forced children into prostitution or something.

[zebeckras.livejournal.com]

Exactly what I intended to say (but got caught up because had to go pick up baby, and typing one-handed... not working for me *G*). I wouldn't buy one because I think it's entirely unnecessary, but the point is moot, because my daughter was doing it anyway. In fact, after I wrote this post, she sat down next to me while I nursed her brother and repeated everything I said and did with her doll. How does this precondition for motherhood? It's just play at what she is seeing in her life. I would think that if a little girl - or boy, for that matter - *hasn't* seen any sign of his/her mother nursing a sibling, he/she would be pretty uninterested, because it doesn't mean that much.

I don't know. I mean, I'm not 100% comfortable with the idea of a doll whose only use is this one thing (I don't like really specialized toys in general, plus comfort levels about boobs and their uses varies from person to person), but the idea behind it is harmless and quite natural. I think it's an unnecessary product, but not an offensive one. Oh well - I made my point, then you made it again for me, so now I'm just on overkill. *G*

[groovekittie.livejournal.com]

Man, that article made me angry. Playing with dolls at a young age does not equal growing up to be a mommy. It's just normal role play.

http://www.naturalchild.org/shop/dolls/nursing.html

That doll is a little less creepy though. Mechanical dolls freak me out in general. *shudder*

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Those dolls are great, but far too expensive for me if I were a mother. I could never afford that. I'd prefer to make them for myself, but I'm an artist, I can do that. I can make the faces to my liking as well.

I still have a doll Mum (or was it my sister?) made me as a kid. It was a sock, cut in half to the middle, with another cut in half bit as the arms. The toe was the head, and she drew the face on. A simple old white sock. I played with that for years. I still have it in my room, next to my pillow. I am so attached to that damn thing.

[groovekittie.livejournal.com]

Oh definitely expensive. Especially for young single mums. But the idea is far better than the mechanical doll. lol

Sock dolls are so cute! I should make a few for Christmas presents ...

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I think the fact that it was hand-made would mean more the kid in the long-run than a store-bought dolly. Though, I still adore my Cindy, a vinyl-rubber baby doll with purple woollen hair. I still have her on my bed. I'm that lame. LOL!

[epea-pteroenta.livejournal.com]

The thing that gets me in those comments (and I agree with what you've written) is that what the child wants doesn't seem to be considered. I played with barbies and dolls all the time and not once did it occur to me that I was perpetuating some kind of anti-feminist trope and the only future for me would be as a wife. I didn't see barbie, for instance, as perpetrating an ultra-slim with-massive-breasts role model. She was just a really cool toy with hair I could style and lots of fabulous clothes. I learned to be creative and make up stories with my barbies and with playmobil. I also had science kits and Wild West lego sets and I loved messing around with those too.

I'm not so naive to think that some censorship is necessary for children, but why are adults so intent to spoil what are to the children TOTALLY INNOCENT AND NORMAL pastimes?

I'm 22 now and I can see that barbie has a ridiculous body but I don't think that's a problem. Children don't look at a toy and think I MUST IMITATE THIS TOY EXACTLY. Give them some credit for intelligence and discrimination. And of course, that's all assuming that doing something like breastfeeding is wrong and that is a charged statement!

The doll seems a little unnecessary to me because I think the child would do it anyway if they were going to and I don't think the extra accessories for everything are needed but as a child I would probably have been as happy with that as with any other doll I did have!

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I think as a child I would have taken the battery out as the crying is fucking annoying. But that was the kind of child I was. One of the first things we did with my sister's Teddy Ruxpin was to put my Mum's opera tapes in his tape player to see if he mouthed Pavarotti. Don't think he did, sadly.

If you give a kid a good and balanced upbringing, with a good general cultural input, if you encourage them to question everything and to never stop wondering about the world, then they'll grow up right.

[purrdence.livejournal.com]

my Mum's opera tapes in his tape player to see if he mouthed Pavarotti.

FTW!

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Yeah, we loved screwing around with Teddy Ruxpin. That bear was a robot killer, its mouth would chomp you!

[moonborn.livejournal.com]

OMG, my grandparents triumphantly presented me with MY Teddy Ruxpin, recently (now that I have a one year old of my own). I totes want to dig out my bellydance tape (the only non-CD I have) and make him mouth Saiidi drum!

And you're right. He is a creepy, creepy chompy robot thing.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of intrigued about the mechanics now. I want to know how it worked!

[amichandrn.livejournal.com]

I think Nancy just won the internet with that comment.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I'm so tempted to buy another one and do it again.

[mamasboo.livejournal.com]

You put this so well!

Also, are these people up in arms over those kitchen playsets that are targeted to girls? Boys get trucks and girls get stuff about cleaning and cooking and shopping. That's so much more offensive but no one mentions it because breastfeeding is so UNNATURAL OMG OH NOOOEESS!!11

*sigh*

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I distinctly remember as a child thinking, "The shape of this doll is stupid. But I guess the clothes sit on it a certain way... maybe that's why they built it like that. Oh well. Hey, my Stormer doll has a better body. She's my favourite." At no time did I think I had to look like the doll. I thought the doll was stupidly shaped, but pretty nonetheless.

[nicoli-dominn.livejournal.com]

I think your comment is very sensitive and astute, and I hope others reading it will see that. :-)

I've been reading a lot lately about cultural conceptions of gender (beyond the physical manifestations of sex) and I definitely side with the people who believe each child, regardless of their apparent genitalia, chromosomes, or inward mechanics, should be treated equally and considered as individuals rather than as part of a predetermined social group ('male' or 'female'). Parents should let their children play with whatever toys or materials they like, so long as they aren't physically harmful or stigmatizing in any way. That's not to say that toys should be morally sterile, but that if a little boy wants to play with a Barbie, fuckin' LET HIM. Like it really matters. :-P

[nicoli-dominn.livejournal.com]

But on the other side of that argument, forcing your children to play with gender neutral toys or toys traditionally designed for the opposite gender is just as wrong as forcing your children to conform to their predetermined cultural gender group standards. It's one thing to want to structure your child's play time to allow for learning opportunities, but to force them to behave or view the world one way or another isn't education--it's oppression.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

I think letting the kids make their own choices with their entertainment/education (within reason) is the best thing you could do. My Mum always made sure we had good books to read and let us do whatever we wanted with our play. So I could rough it with the boys outside, playfight, climb trees, play legos, watch football, etc, and then later I could play with my barbies, draw on my face with chalk to pretend I had make-up on and draw pictures of mermaids and fairies. Balance, it's the key to everything.

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

My little brother played with barbie dolls. But he was also playing with his Beatles figures that were roughly the same size, and they were being the Beatles' girlfriends. He had his Beatle House and everything, it was awesome!

[mamasboo.livejournal.com]

I've returned to your LJ because every time I see an Evony ad (and I just did), I think of you. :) I wanted to comment on this entry though because I'm a nursing mom. (I got sidetracked here when looking for your Evony entry because I wanted to ask if I could make some icons from some of your awesome pictures, they're too hilarious!) About the nursing baby, I don't think nipples and breasts have to be seen as sexual tools or somehow co-opted by males as their personal toys. They do have a biological and reproductive purpose and I don't think having a nursing doll is any more strange than having a little girl play with a baby doll at all, or have bottles to give one. The mechanical "chomping" is kinda weird, as is the flower vest, but the idea is good and I think supportive of being realistic and accepting of the female body. Females can have babies, and I don't think offering this doll to a kid is like telling them to go out and have a ton of kids because that's all they're good for any more than a victoria's secret ad on TV tells your kid to go out and be a whore because that's all they are good for. There's gotta be a balance. What scares me are those folks freaking out about the doll like breastfeeding is nasty or somehow sexual in a "orgasmic" context.

Thanks for listening to me rant:) I'll go look for Guyvony now to have a good laugh. :):)

[mamasboo.livejournal.com]

edited to add that maybe Victoria's secret ads weren't a good comparison because it's a bunch of large breast women in bras floating around amidst scarves wafting around, but you know what I meant;)

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Heh! Icon away! My brother will be thrilled (he's Guyvony! My budding little feminist!) And great rant! I think mothers are often left behind in some circles of feminism. I think looking after mothers and their interests is one of the most feminist acts imaginable.

[mamasboo.livejournal.com]

I never wanted kids until I was 30. I was never one of those little girls who dreamed about getting married, either. Women who down other women for having kids are no better than the flip side. Women who call mothers "breeders" just don't get it. That's like mothers calling women who don't have kids "sluts" or something.

Your bro is BRAVE! Was that his gold bra? LOL

[logansrogue.livejournal.com]

Nah, it's mine. Scotty is such a decent, awesome guy, and I am so incredibly proud of him. He grew up around women, strong women, and he has a dynamo of a woman as a mother, so he knows better than to be disparaging of women. Plus he plainly sees how sexism and misogyny hurts men too - it's bad for everybody. He was very eager to get into the gold bikini, and he just worked so well in the graphics. He was born to be Guyvony.

Mother-hating always leaves me cold. I don't care how progressive or radical a woman is, hating pregnancy and motherhood is hating womanhood, cause the two are a part of the same whole. That doesn't mean that gives license to some to disparage women who choose not to have children. They are as a part of "womanity" as anyone. But you can't cut motherhood out of the collective experience of being a woman. It's a part of it. It deserves respect too.